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Weapons And Balance
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Warmerise#201 : Weapons and Balance Course. [click on the hypertext/link/dat green thingy boii]
Prerequisite : Warmerise#101
Before we start :
I still don't have the stats for BlastGun & LSMG3. As users like "Real" will tell me to "STFU" when I ask them a question about bullet capacity of said guns (even polietly). [I think his name was "Real" met him on T-pile for first time yesterday.]
If someone can provide the number of bullets and reserve no. of mags for BlastGun and LSMG3. It'd be highly appreciated.
Don't make it like this thread I started where no one helps. And a dude "xHysteria" texts saying it's just better because.. well.. "IT is better". *facepalm [https://warmerise.com/forums/topic/955/lsmg3-or-rail] Enough with my rant.
Feel free to correct me if any of my presentations or stats were wrong.
Chapter 1 :
"Burst Damage" : The most damage you can do it the shortest period of time in a single go. It has been divided into "Head" "Torso" "Limbs"
This stat helps you achieve those multi-kills easier and delete multiple enemies on a rush. You will be reloading less with more of this stat to your gun. Thus, Killing more without reloading.
"Burst Damage/Second" : Also known as DPS, This is how fast you can deal the previous stat. Thus, Killing your enemies faster.
"Time to Kill" : It is analogus to "Burst Damage/Second" as it is 100 divided vy "Burst DPS"
Chapter 2 : Autimatic
UMP 40
Mini-G [Assume]
BlastGun
Carbine
G36
LSMG3 [Assume]
VectorX
A12
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Carbine is > UMP40
But, UMP 40 kills 0.013 seconds faster that is 13 milliseconds when you only consider the all bullets hit the head scenario.
But.. You'd have had to reload 50% more often with UMP40 or even more in real-life scenarios as when you have only a few bullets left you will. As CARBINE DEALS 50% MORE BURST DAMAGE THAN UMP40 and many more in Carbine's defence.
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I say it's a tie with Mini-G and Carbine
As Mini-G is just a better weapon in inhuman-skilled hands. But, It's really really really hard.
No, It is not the recoil.. It's the fact that Mini-G is a delayed Autimatic gun. It needs to be "hot" for it to be fired.
Mini-G has the best DPS and inturn.. The Least Time-to-Kill's of this chapter.
and...
In Carbine's defence.. It can be used. That's it. Simple enough for mortals to be used enough.
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Carbine is > BlastGun
IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY! I REPEAT! IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY!
Assuming you can control for carbine's recoil.. which is pretty easy once you get used to the gun.
UPDATE! : 23-09-2019
Heck!
UMP 40 is > BlastGun
IN ALMOST EVERY WAY! I REPEAT! DO NOT BUY BLASTGUN! for new players. Unless you see yourself hitting always and only torso. Still the Total damage should be less than UMP 40. Just don't waste cash.
BlastGun needs Higher firerate and less bullets per mag and one more mag imho. Maybe increase the price?
Imho it should be like that Vector in PUBG. Least Time-to-Kill with not much potential than 3 kills maybe? currently it is at 4.9 kills potential.
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Carbine >~ G36
They both roughly perform the same**
Carbine has more Burst Damage, It can kill more in one mag. like 50% more.
But, G36 has a better scope. If you need that zoom.. Go for G36. Else, Carbine.
Who knows.. Your accuracy could be way more with G36.. Rendering the Carbine's more Burst Damage useless as you wouldn't hit those shots anyway.
If you're one of those players who can kill enemy on other side of map of "Base" with UMP40. Go for Carbine. Else G36.
My tip: Try before you buy.
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LSMG3 - Unfinished*
Need more stats to determine anything.
Give your Prof.Dr. Shinchan some time. ;)
UPDATE! : 23-09-2019
LSMG3 Not my type of weapon. That's all I can say after I got to know that it only has 11x5 bullets.
I guess you can use it when you have a truck-a-load of coins stacked up? There is no other scene I'd tell you to use it. If you end up in such scenario.. IT is a beast! But, I hope there will be more bullets per mag but the number of mags is okay! so that people can go for a push. Carbine does 232% of what LSMG3 can do 100%! There is no reason to get it for new players as i said.. unless you happen to have a truck load of coins and don't know what to do.. you can run it for it's high DPS. Already G36 fills in between Autimatic and Sniper section.
G36 and Plasma are doing so good that LSMG3 sees no daylight. A buff for bullets per mag would do great job. I'd say 3 more bullets per mag would do wonders without making it OP. As the BurstDamage would be still less than BlastGun which is broken already.
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Vector X ~ Carbine
Vector X is 10% better than carbine for those 1v1s or Camping or Defending.
Carbine is Better for Team Rushes.
Vector X is always a good buy when you have enough. But.. Not for beginners as it costs more and you need a bit more skill to master VectorX than Carbine.
Carbine is better for new players (not noobs, I mean new players) who wanna take it up as their first purchased weapon if auto is your thing.
Also.. Most new players are aggressive for that kills and money so.. #goCarbine
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Carbine is > A12
Unless you survive long enough to deal all bullets of all the mags to enemies only in torso. Even then it is a 2% advantage.
Not just A12, In general Carbine is better to most in game. Due to it's Burst damage.
I have no clue why A12 costs more and why people use it. Maybe this will be your education so that you can make better choices.
I mean.. They could like the A12 sound? reload animation? maybe they tap shoot in a peek battles? then why not use a 1 shot snipers? idk. I'm no judge. It's better for me that you guys use A12 ;)
A12 and Carbine should be exhanged or something! MAX!
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Chapter 3 : Long Range
L115A3
LSMG3 [Assume]
PlasmaGun [Assume]
Rail Rifle
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L115A3 no BS it is a solid weapon to start with.
LSMG3* unifinished
PlasmaGun* will be covered in a while
Rail Rifle OP! OP! It owns in it's current state given that skill. It makes sense it costs what it costs.
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Chapter 4 : Special Section
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This section is special. People could suck or be gods with this section.
No not Flamethrower. That is stupid. It needs a buff or something.
Mini-G Best Auto on paper. If only someone can use it like a beast it is.
PlasmaGun Instant shots. Likea lasa beammmmmm.
LMSG3* unfinished
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Conclusions:
RailRifle's Non-Scoped accuracy should be decreased.
A12 and Carbine should be exchanged. OR something needs to be done about CARBINE! It is OP for it's weigh class. So OP! that it Punches holes through other weight ranks. This is not a joke.. I used to laugh every time someone uses a A12. I mean it. Not like a LMAO.. But like a chuckle.
BlastGun needs a better firerate.
LSMG3 should be like Plasma with a bit reduced stats maybe?
CPW sucks compared to Revolver. Look at my profile. I use only those revolver and carbine. I am making this for you guys.
It's not like revolver is OP maybe it is.. But.. CPW seriously needs a buff.
A standing guy with a Revolver can spam shots to limbs and still kill you!, before you kill them when as he is a standing target with a CPW all headshots, all hit.
USP looks better on stats. But, 9.52 clicks per second while aiming is.. you know.. impossible. But.. It is what it is.. a Backup Pistol.
Most new players should pick up other's pirmarys from the ground. Purchasing a Secondary is easy anyway.
Pulse pistol needs a Buff. It's almost the same as USP! * I need more info on PulsePistol as well.
Thanks for reading! Hope this helped improve your game!
Warmerise#101 was made by someone. I read it a long long time ago.
Thank you warmerise! Thank you max!
Comments : [cue anime music]
I think there needs to be something done about this...
If a weapon is better than other in everyway.. then it should cost more.
Yes I knew this way before. I have been taking advantage of this. But, I love this community more than ever now.
I wanna give something back now. - ShinChan
This post was edited by shinchan at September 23, 2019 8:32 AM PDT -
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@shinchan, thank you for this analysis. It is incredibly detailed and interesting. Moreover, it adds a lot of information, some of which are quite revolutionary in my opinion. I have long been convinced, that Vector-X actually kills a bit faster than Carbine, and it is a pleasant surprise, that I was right. I also believe sharing this topic to be a good idea.
This post was edited by Batory at September 23, 2019 4:25 AM PDT -
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Batory said:
@shinchan, thank you for this analysis. It is incredibly detailed and interesting. Moreover, it adds a lot of information, some of which are quite revolutionary in my opinion. I have long been convinced, that Vector-X actually kills a bit faster than Carbine, and it is a pleasant surprise, that I was right. I also believe sharing this topic to be a good idea.
@Batory
Please tell me How to tag me like how you tagged me @Shinchan :D
Yes VectorX does kill faster, 13ms; 72ms; 16ms faster respectively for Head, Torso and Limbs. It has it's own role. Imho it needs a buff in reserve capacity of bullets. As Carbine does 84.5%[Head]-64.3%[Torso] more kills before restocking ammo capacity. With VectorX you need coins way too often. like 84% more often. Maybe half a more mag? one more?
Anyway A12, CPW, BlastGun broken. @MAX please look into that. I have no clue how many have actually read this.
The thing is I saw a few profiles with way many kills on A12(when they already own a carbine) i can't help but chuckle.
Actually.. If you can see.. UMP 40 is better than BlastGun!! ughhh! I will add this on the OP.
This post was edited by shinchan at September 23, 2019 2:26 AM PDT -
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No problem, all you need to do to tag members is to copy their nickname written in green letters and then simply paste it into your reply's text. This is probably because that way you copy the link to a player's profile. For an example, if you want to tag Max, you first need to find his green-lettered nick (the easiest way is to find him on your friend's list), then you just copy it and paste into your text: Max.
My experiences with Vector-X have so far confirmed what you say - I find myself in a "desperate-need-of-ammo-restocking" situation way too often comparing to Carbine. The first weapon could definitely use an additional magazine.
And to me the funny thing about A12 is...I remember how I registered after the accounts had been deleted 3 or 2 years ago, and I managed to do it as one of the first 1000 players. I received 50000 cash as a prize, and I was so happy about it, that I bought A12 judging by it's stats only and thinking it was going to be even better than Carbine. You can imagine the pain and disappointment ;) A12 definitely needs a buff. Maybe a good scope to make it a semi-automatic sniper gun? Or increased damage? Anyways, for now players using this weapon stand absolutely no chance when I confront them with a Carbine. They usuallly change to Carbine very quickly, when I fight with them.
This post was edited by Batory at September 23, 2019 5:03 AM PDT -
IForza said:
It depends on how you can control each weapon.
May I know?.. Which pair of weapons of my comparision are you refering to?
For example, If were to be the UMP 40 and BlastGun comparision.. I could say..
UMP 40 and BlastGun have the same recoil[a value of 0.59 deg/shot] and Actually BlastGun's recoil would be harder to control because of it's relatively higher FireRate despite the fact that it is not a free weapon and performs poorly than free weapon.
BlastGun is broken. period
So.. You can tell me which comparision you were refering to so that I can elaborate properly if the message was not conveyed.
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Can you please share this so that it falls into eye of people like MAX?
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STERBEN99 said:
nice initiative but some suggestions are simply nuts like 'increasing the rail's non scope accuracy' or 'increase the blastgun's fire rate'
Sorry.. I meant to decrease the rail's non scope accuracy. Will edit that.
I am so sorry. Anyway I told you guys to inform me if anything was wrong. It was a long post :_)
Update! ! No need to edit anything. You read it wrong. -_-
This post was edited by shinchan at September 23, 2019 11:12 AM PDT -
STERBEN99 said:
nice initiative but some suggestions are simply nuts like 'increasing the rail's non scope accuracy' or 'increase the blastgun's fire rate'
You can clearly see that UMP 40 is better than BlastGun. Like.. Clearly.
imho.. either we have to remove it or increase it's FireRate and reduce ammo. Giving it near Mini-G time to kills.
Like.. It is worse than a basic free UMP 40. If you have another way of balance, Please feel free to share it with us ::love::
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shinchan said:
STERBEN99 said:
nice initiative but some suggestions are simply nuts like 'increasing the rail's non scope accuracy' or 'increase the blastgun's fire rate'
You can clearly see that UMP 40 is better than BlastGun. Like.. Clearly.
imho.. either we have to remove it or increase it's FireRate and reduce ammo. Giving it near Mini-G time to kills.
Like.. It is worse than a basic free UMP 40. If you have another way of balance, Please feel free to share it with us ::love::
I'll take the blast over the ump everyday
if you want a to do a test game I'm in
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STERBEN99 said:
I'll take the blast over the ump everyday
if you want a to do a test game I'm in
I do agree that anyone can play a USP only game if they want to. It's a game and whatever you feel like using, you can use.The title of the post is not about one's likings. I felt it's my duty to share what i tought gave an advantage to me.
I can not change your decision. Only the information you know. Hope you have a great day!
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In fact I'm gonna go the extra mile and show you what I mean
Carbine being better than the UMP shouldn't really be a surprise, one is paid weapon and the other is given to a player for the awesome price of free.
I'd even go as far to say that the Carbine is better than the G36 (which is basically a ump with zoom). However taken in consideration the G36's ironsight (which to some players gives her the edge over the Carbine) we can assume that on a 'Carbine vs G36' its more of a user's preference rather than a simple stats comparison (although the carbine is superior in damage output) therefore I'd say they are somewhat balanced.
A gun being balanced or not sums to either being so OP you're almost requiered to use it or else you're in a disadvantage or so trash that no one uses it :insert_pulse_pistol_picture_here:
Therefore becomes hard to compare weapons that don't to the same roles, eg- the l115a3 vs Mini-G
so I really don't get how and why you're comparing the Carbine vs a Mini-G, they are simply very different
one is full auto and the other is needs to be pre-heated, one is great for longe range the other ain't, one is somewhat decent at supression, the other aces it.
Carbine vs Blastgun
(since you requested the Blastgun's ammo goes as follows: 35/175)
...yea...if you only take in consideration damage output then I do agree
but what about fire rate? the Blast takes the win
Recoild? Blast
and they pair up in terms of spread
I've scoped (with an L115A3) on both players using a carbine and a BlastGun and let me tell you, the fire rate of a blastgun is insane to counteract, you simply don't have a break even if the opponent is somewhat failing a shot here and there while on the other hand with a carbine when you take in consideration missed shots and the way lower fire rate its way easier
the Blastgun is a gun thats annoying to play against (in a good way)
Is it balanced? no
but its not because of the fire rate and therefore just increasing an already insane fire rate won't fix it
the real problem with the blastgun is simple the long reload time which makes it mandatory you carry around an auto side arm
why not reduce? and my point is; you wouldn't get that conclusion with your stats.
now that my point is made im gonna fire through the rest
don't trigger me
meh, somewhat agree
agree, an extra mag or two and/or 1 or 2 more shots per mag would probably fix it
don't understand how you got to the conclusion that the vector for camping and the vector for rushes but oh well
tbh I do give the edge to the vector but thats not necessarily a good thing, I'd like to see how the Vector would do if it was the only weapon to have fall off damage, giving the carbine a longer range niche while the vector would stay more on the medium/close
side note; first time I readed the Rail's part I mistakenly read "increase"
totally agree overall on the long range section
maybe increase the cooldown of the plasma from 1,17 seconds to 1,5
and the Revolver's hip fire should be less accurate
as for the A12 make it an auto shotgun thats actually not OP and the pulse pistol a cooldown weapon, making it the only gun that you don't need to worry about ammo...except for the gravity
as for the shotguns ***'em
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STERBEN99 said:
you call it weapons and balance however all you talk about is damage output
I do get what you're saying and your pov and if you want the stats on the lsmg3 and the other one hmu
but making a weapon decision based on this simple analytics isn't the best choice
I am sorry on how you took the post to be. I remember reading a post on how to aim a while ago which helped my own game a lot.
So.. I ended up calling it #101 and this #201 in a funny way as I already have the Prof.Dr tag. As without that #101 this will be rendered useless. Reason for which will be stated below in a while.
I feel bad that you couldn't understand that it wasn't all paper work, spreadsheets. If it were to be.. I'd call Mini-G to be the best automatic and USP to be a backup BlastGun[if not better] till 1 kill.. and would've suggested everyone to use it. Did I? NO
STERBEN99 said:
I'd even go as far to say that the Carbine is better than the G36 (which is basically a ump with zoom). However taken in consideration the G36's ironsight (which to some players gives her the edge over the Carbine) we can assume that on a 'Carbine vs G36' its more of a user's preference rather than a simple stats comparison (although the carbine is superior in damage output) therefore I'd say they are somewhat balanced
Well.. I feel bad that you could'nt understand that I said..
shinchan said:
Carbine >~ G36
They both roughly perform the same**
My tip: Try before you buy.
STERBEN99 said:
A gun being balanced or not sums to either being so OP you're almost requiered to use it or else you're in a disadvantage or so trash that no one uses it :insert_pulse_pistol_picture_here:
No. Shotguns have a lower pick rate in ~"Only Sniper.."~ maps. Sniper Rifles have lower pick rate in ~close quarters~ maps
That doesn't mean either weapon is bad or poor or that the other is OP.
This video explains balance better : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1olDKFmdAcU
STERBEN99 said:
Therefore becomes hard to compare weapons that don't to the same roles, eg- the l115a3 vs Mini-G
Well.. well.. well.. I feel really bad that you couldn't understand that I divided weapons into sections [Chapters] in my first post.
STERBEN99 said:
so I really don't get how and why you're comparing the Carbine vs a Mini-G, they are simply very different
one is full auto and the other is needs to be pre-heated, one is great for longe range the other ain't, one is somewhat decent at supression, the other aces it.
I'm tired to typing that blockquotes. PLEASE READ MY TAKE ON THAT AGAIN.
"(since you requested the Blastgun's ammo goes as follows: 35/175)" Updated on the spreadsheet. Thank You! :love:
STERBEN99 said:
..yea...if you only take in consideration damage output then I do agree
but what about fire rate? the Blast takes the win
Recoild? Blast
and they pair up in terms of spread
shinchan said:
Carbine is > BlastGun
Assuming you can control for carbine's recoil.. which is pretty easy once you get used to the gun.
Did you miss that line?
Yes it is and I can't explain the term better
shinchan said:
"Burst Damage/Second" : Also known as DPS, This is how fast you can deal the previous stat. Thus, Killing your enemies faster.
"Time to Kill" : It is analogus to "Burst Damage/Second" as it is 100 divided by* "Burst DPS"
I have a doubt.. Did you read the OP properly? I am not even making new sentences here. I'm just copy pasting my OP. Please! Please! do read my OP properly.
"My point is; you wouldn't get that conclusion with your stats."
Say the same after carefully going through my OP please. If you still have doubts I will try to explain.
1. Dude.. Listen.. I got that you have some personal issues. But the FACTs are as follows..
2. Time to Kills for Carbine : 519 667 737 milliseconds. BlastGun : 607 653 772 milliseconds. [This is a Mathematical Fact]
3. FireRate multiplied with Damages will result in Damage/Second [That's Math]
4. 100/DPS = Time-to-Kill [That's math as well]
5. I can't force you to believe that BlastGun, A12, CPW, LSMG3, PulsePistol are at a disadvantage under fair conditions. [That's Psychology]
STERBEN99 said:
side note; first time I readed the Rail's part I mistakenly read "increase"
Try not to be here again. :hope:
STERBEN99 said:
don't understand how you got to the conclusion that the vector for camping and the vector for rushes but oh well
Vector X kills faster than Carbine by 14 73 15.5 milliseconds faster than Carbine.
Carbine has the potential to kill 148% people when Vector X would do 100%. Pretty better players wouldn't want to be reloading when you are in a rush.
STERBEN99 said:
tbh I do give the edge to the vector but thats not necessarily a good thing
IT is a good thing. Else Carbine would overshadow Vector X as well
STERBEN99 said:
I'd like to see how the Vector would do if it was the only weapon to have fall off damage, giving the carbine a longer range niche while the vector would stay more on the medium/close
That is going beyond my topic of discussion.
"maybe increase the cooldown of the plasma from 1,17 seconds to 1,5" Idk I'm not a plasma player and... no one thinks it needs a buff? Feel free to add suggestions.
"and the Revolver's hip fire should be less accurate" It has a recoil to manage. But, idk... It's up for discussion.
"as for the A12 make it an auto shotgun thats actually not OP and the pulse pistol a cooldown weapon, making it the only gun that you don't need to worry about ammo...except for the gravity"
That would be fundamentally changing what that weapon is. Well.. Aha.. You seem to agree that A12 is at a disadvantage but not BlastGun? Interesting.. I get it now dude.. IF YOU LOVE USING SOMETHING.. USE IT :LOVE: Don't give false info that it is better. Anyway if BlastGun was to get a Buff.. It is BlastGun players that get an even ground. Idk why you are so against it.
Take some bullets off off it and increase it's fire rate.
STERBEN99 said:
as for the shotguns ***'em
Well.. I assume it's a joke. That is going agains't balance. *facepalm
Are you trolling? If you are.. Please don't waste my time. :hope:
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A note to everyone.. Please read the OP carefully and understand the terms before you wanna argue or defend for your fav weapon.
What I am trying to convey is that.. IF YOU WERE TO FIGHT A 1V1 AGAINST YOU ON MIRRORED MAPS FOR BOTH SIDES WITH DIFFERENT WEAPONS FROM THE SAME SECTION.. HOW LIKELY YOU ARE TO WIN WITH "XXXXXX" PARTICULAR WEAPON is a bit screwed up and we need to fix it.
This post was edited by shinchan at September 24, 2019 7:50 AM PDT -
I disagree with a lot of what you wrote in your OP, but I'm really excited to read through this thread after work. You've clearly done a lot of statistical analysis (anyone who brings a spreadsheet rot a forum thread has my everlasting respect) but I think there's more to be said in terms of putting that theory into practice. Either way, great thread and I'm looking forward to discussing it later :) -
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Okay, that was a great read, the whole thread. I'm going to drop my spreadsheet here because I've been working on it for a long time and I want to give you another source to compare data against (it seems to match up from what I'm seeing). I'm going to break up my thougts into a list so you can adress (and blockquote) them more easily:
- - "burst damage" is completely wrong. What you're describing is damage per magazine. It's an important stat, but it's named poorly. Burst damage/Burst DPS is a term from MMOs about a class of players that do a ton of damage in one hit, but have incredibly long cooldowns on their abilities.
- - The math you have for calculating damage is... weird. To calculate DPS, all you need to do is damage*fire rate. Your math isn't wrong, just unneccessarily complex.
- - Your math to calculate time to kill is wrong however. Players have 101 effective health because a player is still alive at 0 HP. This bug has not been fixed, contrary to patch notes. Right now you take 100 and divide by the weapon DPS, which is a problem because it allows for fractional damage. Take the A12 torso damage. 25 damage requires 4 shots to kill a target at 100 HP, which takes (at ~0.19 seconds per bullet) a total of 0.76 seconds. Now if players have 101 HP, then you need 5 shots to kill, which is a total of 0.95 seconds. Admittedly, this is kind of the worst case scenario, but it is a fundamental flaw with how you're approaching this. Damage is dealt in individual bullets, it is not a constant stream. By spreading out damage over time as an average, you're losing that precision.
Okay so that should prove that I read the OP so now I can talk about individual weapons :D
- - The G36 vs Carbine topic has been done to death in this thread, but there's an underlying thing that also applies to other weapons: They each feel different, and that personal preference is important. I love the blastgun, despite it desparately needing a buff. Making it into a Kriss Vector would completely ruin the feel of the weapon to me.
- - Turning the BlastGun into a vector won't make it better, it will make it worse. If you say that the carbine beats out the VX because it has more damage before a reload is needed, why would you make the Blastgun have less damage output inside one magazine? It just needs more damage to push it over a damage breakpoint.
- - A lot of weapons need a touch more damage to push it over a breakpoint, but just so we're on the same page let me define a breakpoint: If a weapon damage stat were to be increased to the point where it would take one fewer bullet to kill a target, it has passed a damage breakpoint. The A12 torso damage is sitting on a damage breakpoint right now. Boosting it up to 26 damage would turn it from a 5 hit kill to a 4 hit kill. The LSMG3 also sits on a breakpoint with its 33 limb damage. The plasma does too at 51 torso damage, if it were decreased to 50 it would be a 3 hit kill
- - A12 bad
- - Railrifle worse than you think it is. 3 hit limb kill creates inconsistent shots-to-kill which is completely unforgivable. Buff limb damage to 51, reduce max fire rate, increase hipfire spread and cone of fire. Maybe more ammo, I'm indifferent.
This post was edited by chronospectrum at September 24, 2019 5:45 PM PDT -
Sorry! My bad! Chronospectrum was right when he said it allows for fractional damage. I will fix it. Love you dude. You're the only one who put anything of meaningful sense. Because of my inclusion of fractional damage i could've got a lot of the things wrong. I'm glad it isn't that way.
Edit:
Also.. I didn't think 101 was the effective health. I jusy thought it was a bug that happens sometimes. Will take it into account as well.
This post was edited by shinchan at September 24, 2019 10:15 PM PDT