chronospectrum said:good reads :)
STERBEN99 said:
usp->+1 the 20 clip idea
-1 to increasing firerateTrap mine->my suggestion (idk if you're saying the same) take time to the mine actually deploy and activate
Jet->totally agree
maybe add a slower or fewer missiles and add a seconday weapon to it, machinegun like in the humvee, aimable to were you would want, this would also implicate a little changes on the controls-can you expand on why you disagree with the USP being an automatic sidearm?
-Yes, that is what I suggested for the trapmine.
-Asking for a machine gun turret is being a little greedy for the jet. That kind of thing is not easy to make. Honestly, if there were a viable counterweapon to the jet it would be almost completely balanced as it is.
i disagree with the change on a fully automatic secondary USP40 mainly because i believe it would be the oppostite of what you want, unbalence, IF you had to that a reduction on the dmg, fine by me
I agree, but I never suggested that I wanted that. I don't know if I explained poorly or if you misunderstood (or both), so let me try again: I never wanted the damage to be changed, I think 7 is actually alright. What I want is for the colliders that the flamethrower shoots to go farther away from the player before despawning. I also want the colliders and the flame particles to be smaller so that it looks more like this and less like this. Hopefully that makes sense!
Ah, probably I miss understood but I see what you mean. Makes sense to me.
Making the tomahawks take time to throw gives the target a chance to retaliate. If it takes a half-second to throw a tomahawk, that's a half second that the target has to put some damage into the thrower and make their aim go all over the place due to the recoil, if not outright kill the person. If you read the very first goal I listed in my post, I want to encourage weapon diversity. That means making every weapon usable in specific situations. Dropping the Tomahawk to 50 damage a) wouldn't kill anyone because 50*2<101 HP and b) will make them outright worse than the trapmines, and possibly the grenades. I like the tomahawks as a concept, but they need to be balanced instead of being nerfed into oblivion. I'll touch on your gravity points later.
I implied 50*2 thing because I was assuming one wouldn't be using Toma to kill players that are afk, it would work in situation such as if a opponent already has lost some health in advance. I don't know if adding that would be that beneficial however adding a certain curve when throwing toma would be great.
If it was going to be OP with a reload reduction, it would be just as common now as the Carbine/G36. As it stands, the Blast is worse than both of these guns. I made these a while back, they're graphs of how long it takes to empty one magazine and how long it takes to reload. Note that the Blast dumps a magazine faster than any other weapon and also takes the longest to reload(well it almost ties the carbine), despite doing less DPS than the other big two.
KUDOS ON DOING THE GRAPH! That makes perfect sense now. Even though it's been a long time since I've played with g36 and carbine which is why I wasn't able to tell that difference. I totally am supportive of that idea. Thanks for clarification.
What's stopping you from doing that now? My RPG changes aren't the problem in this scenario, the fact that it's possible to farm XP in a private server is the problem. An exploit in the game is no reason to willfully ignore weapon imbalance.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but gaining XP in private TDM servers is now disabled. This needs to be expanded to all private servers, in my opinion. "but wait!" I hear you say, "What about sky?!?!?!?!1?!?" I have numerous complanints about sky, none of which I'll get into here, but it does raise a good point: Do we eliminate the ability to earn XP in private Elim servers? I don't know the answer to that one, admittedly.
It is time consuming increasing damage for vehicles will make it easier to get kills and farm xp. I thought there was a limit added for getting XP in private servers but I wasn't aware that it was completely eliminated? If we do eliminate earing XP in private that will prevent XP farm.
What map is SC? Snowy Canyon? (Is that even a map?)
You're not wrong. The gravity won't cause any framerate lag. If someone is having network lag and using the gravity then they'll ruberband around a lot and be really annoying to hit. That one I can confirm myself. Also, I have taken physics as well, which puts me in a pretty good position to call you out on that claim. Taking a phyiscs class has no relevance to this conversation.
Well the user brought up physics and using all those terms making it sound as if I wasn't aware of how physics works. I've no interest in bringing physics in this conversation but I didn't want to completely ignore what the user had to say about their physics knowledge. Network lag is the users own problem.
The whole point of the debate was why Gravity shouldn't be removed and I admit it went a little off topic but hopefully I did change the person's pov.
STERBEN99 said:i disagree with the change on a fully automatic secondary USP40 mainly because i believe it would be the oppostite of what you want, unbalence, IF you had to that a reduction on the dmg, fine by me
I'm still not sure I understand you. How exactly would it be unbalanced?
I want it to be a panic button basically. Useless as a primary, but very valuable when you're out of primary ammo. I guess I placed it in the opposite role the Revolver fills: a low damage, high RoF weapon with limited magazines to keep it from being overused.
Zero said:I implied 50*2 thing because I was assuming one wouldn't be using Toma to kill players that are afk, it would work in situation such as if a opponent already has lost some health in advance. I don't know if adding that would be that beneficial however adding a certain curve when throwing toma would be great.
In theory, 51 damage models work. They're a large amount of damage, and that should get you more kills on damaged enemies. The problem is that enemies are often full health, near full, near dead, or dead. Think of how often you hit someone in the torso with a plasma. How many of those times to people actually die? Probably more in elimination, now that I think about it actually. Hm, interesing.
Zero said:It is time consuming increasing damage for vehicles will make it easier to get kills and farm xp. I thought there was a limit added for getting XP in private servers but I wasn't aware that it was completely eliminated? If we do eliminate earing XP in private that will prevent XP farm.
Exactly, if you can't use it to farm XP in private, the changes I suggested work. I actually had to look up the version that got fixed in, it was version 2.3.2
Zero said:What map is SC? Snowy Canyon? (Is that even a map?)
Yes and yes respectively lol
Zero said:Well the user brought up physics and using all those terms making it sound as if I wasn't aware of how physics works. I've no interest in bringing physics in this conversation but I didn't want to completely ignore what the user had to say about their physics knowledge. Network lag is the users own problem.
The whole point of the debate was why Gravity shouldn't be removed and I admit it went a little off topic but hopefully I did change the person's pov.
Yeah, I didn't mean to sound as agressive about the physics thing as I did, now that I re-read it. Like I said, you're completely right, just not for reasons they'll teach you in a physics class haha
Off topic discussion are fine(ish) so long as it doesn't get twisted into insults and slapfights. These are really good discussions from both sides of the topic at hand, and I'm happy to see people looking to read what other people think.
Been a long time since we had such good discussions in forums and good debates.
Another thought occured to me. Why not make it so when a user gets hit by Toma their health decreases by 10 or 15 points(?).
Throwing toma at curved angle, on getting hit health gets reduced as the time goes on. The opponent gets to live depending on how much health they have, the user will have to practive their curve and that kinda balances the whole thing, no?
chronospectrum said:STERBEN99 said:i disagree with the change on a fully automatic secondary USP40 mainly because i believe it would be the oppostite of what you want, unbalence, IF you had to that a reduction on the dmg, fine by me
I'm still not sure I understand you. How exactly would it be unbalanced?
I want it to be a panic button basically. Useless as a primary, but very valuable when you're out of primary ammo. I guess I placed it in the opposite role the Revolver fills: a low damage, high RoF weapon with limited magazines to keep it from being overused.
forget about what i said, i was thinking the dmg was a lil higer -.-
about the jet, yea, i know its a little greedy one :V
Zero said:Been a long time since we had such good discussions in forums and good debates.
Another thought occured to me. Why not make it so when a user gets hit by Toma their health decreases by 10 or 15 points(?).
Throwing toma at curved angle, on getting hit health gets reduced as the time goes on. The opponent gets to live depending on how much health they have, the user will have to practive their curve and that kinda balances the whole thing, no?
didn´t understood, can you explain better the curved part pls? about the hp decrease, idk, we maybe had to test it to see how it goes
@zero, you nearly killed (from laughter) me with that part of the fat person
i'll leave this to the grown ups xd
@TheArbiter
Thanks for leaving this to the grown ups ;)
@Sterben99
Instead of making the toma do instant damage, make it so when a player gets hit by toma their health decreases by 10 every 5 seconds.
By curved I mean instead of throwing toma straight, add a 45 degree curve to it or make it go like a arch.
what about: having only one tomahawk and be able to use it has a knife or if needed, throw it, with a prediction arch like zero said AND some draw time like in the bow?
(so zero you're saying to act like "poison"?hmmm...probablye could work, decrease from 5s to 3s maybe)
i didn´t read the draw part on chrono post that's way i suggested it, the poison you suggested would actually be pretty cool, but wouldn´t that take some work to do? you're the guy to answer the question xd
but, when you say to throw it in a 45º, that, that would actually take some luck to hit smth wouldn´t? not to mention some maps have some low ceiling making impossible to throw it without getting stuck
still, would love to actually have it in the hand, like the knife and use it as a cqb weapon or throw it (skins to them maybe?) maybe make them a little slower
Not really. Instead of doing instant damage you are just adding the player to a dictionary list and removing health from that player until it gets to 0 then remove the player from the dictionary.
(I'm using a programming term there)
For throwing toma at 45, I was thinking why not get a random number between 45 and 90 then throw the toma at that angle. Make it fun you know?
Cycada said:idk if making the bullet travel time instantanious on lsgm3 would be enough to balance it
it would, in fact be an improvement, but why not add this, idk if this is a tricky one or not, but, imagine that if you hold the left mouse button it would act like an auto, you could change between an accurate "slower" shot (the current way it is), or a less accurate rapid fire for closer combat (?)
STERBEN99 said:i didn´t read the draw part on chrono post that's way i suggested it, the poison you suggested would actually be pretty cool, but wouldn´t that take some work to do? you're the guy to answer the question xd
but, when you say to throw it in a 45º, that, that would actually take some luck to hit smth wouldn´t? not to mention some maps have some low ceiling making impossible to throw it without getting stuck
still, would love to actually have it in the hand, like the knife and use it as a cqb weapon or throw it (skins to them maybe?) maybe make them a little slower
handling the toma like a knife would Inadvertently solve another problem, using the grav to jump close and then insta kill with tomma
the fact that an enemy would to actually change from gravity to toma and even then still gotta draw it to launch it would give a few seconds for the player to counter attack;
to prevent that play of flying near with grav and drop mine while gowing away its simple, don´t allow to drop mines while gravity is on hand (idk if this is possible to do, i mean possible: yes, easy is the question)
-btw is it still possible to shoot the toma with shield on?-
@chronoSprectrum(?) btw about the auto-side arm
i've talked with some players and by some reason, they didn´t specify why, they say they like USP the way it is
but i also like your idea, so y not kill 1 bird with 2 stones (3 actually)?
keep the current usp and then add another weapon with the specs you said with the model some players asked to make a comeback (the old blastgun-max already got the animations sounds etc-so i don´t see a problem)
with this move max could satisfy those ppl who keep demanding more guns, adding the interesting concept you proposed and recycle an old model that some really like
-btw ppl this is not a "lets keep ask for more guns" thread i just offered a simple solution to chrono idea in a way that could satisfy more people, so pardon me if i passed other image-
chronospectrum said:How to Fix Warmerise!
^clickbait title, I'm just balancing some weapons
First, I want to mention some assumptions and goals I have about this post:
1) My goal is to encourage weapon diversity. Basically I want people to be able to use different weapons for different playstyles. I want snipers to have a good sniper, heavy gunners to have a good supression weapon, et cetera. Included in this, I want every weapon to feel unique so that there's reason to buy new weapons beyond just "I want to have them all."
2) I'm assuming teams will be balanced. This will almost never happen, but it's better to plan for an ideal scenario, I feel.
3) Players will have equal performance. This one is DEFINITELY not true, but again I'd like to plan for the ideal.
4) Max has nothing better to do than fix the weapon balance. No idea on this one, I don't know Max's life. But if he's ever looking for a comprehensive list of weapon balance suggestions, they're right here.
Right on, now let's get into the fun stuff.
Each weapon will be marked in the order they appear in their catagory. I will indicate whether they are BALANCED or NOT BALANCED, then I will give a brief overview of what I think needs to be done to balance the weapon.
UMP-40 BALANCED!
Leave the kriss UMP be, it's fine. It's a great weapon that can hold it's own against paid weapons in a pinch, but purchasing other weapons will give you other advantages over the UMP. This is the ideal starting weapon.L115A3 BALANCED!
Leave this where it is, it's a great long range weapon that behaves exactly as you'd expect one to.STG-12 BALANCED!
I'm calling this one balanced for one reason: I'd rather shotguns be underpowered than overpowered. Personally, I would add another pellet or two to each shot, but if that makes it too reliable of a one-hit-kill at longer ranges, then I'd rather it stay right where it is.Mini-G BALANCED!
This gun is actually REALLY strong for it's cost. It's ability to supress an area for long periods of time is exceptionally useful on maps where you need to hold a choke point, but the spin-up time will kill you if you play it like an assault rifleBlastGun NOT BALANCED!
The BlastGun has the potential to be just as competitive as a carbine except for one trait: it's insane reload time. Reducing this reload time by half would make this weapon very competitive, which it NEEDS to be, if you look at it's price.Carbine BALANCED!
A very strong, slow firing rifle that rewards great aim and punishes misses and reloads. A great weapon, with a decent price to match.G36 BALANCED!
A cross between a carbine and a UMP-40, it is THE go-to weapon for professional players. The only competition in the category of "best weapon" is the Carbine.LSMG3 NOT BALANCED!
To balance this weapon, two things need to happen:The torso and limb damage both need to go up by one point each. A torso hit is 33 damage, so 3 hits is a total of 99 damage. You'll need 4 (or two and a headshot) to kill a target. Limb damage is 25, which means you need 5(Remember, you're still alive at 0 HP). The second thing that needs to happen is to make this weapon unique. This thing costs more than the Carbine AND G36, there needs to be a reason to use it. I suggest making the bullets from the LSMG3 travel instantly to their target. This moves the gun into a position where it's equivalent to a long range battle rifle; not as good as a sniper but better than an automatic weapon.PlasmaGun BALANCED!
After MANY tweaks to this thing, it's finally in a place where nobody is complaining about it. Good shots get a reliable 2-hit-kill, bad shots die really quickly. This is a very good place for this kind of weapon.A12 NOT BALANCED!
This thing is weird. It functions a bit like a carbine 2.0, but it isn't really that good. I have two suggestions for this one, one of them is easy, the other one is insanely cool.First suggestion: make the torso damage 26 instead of 25 for the same reason we did this to the LSMG3.
Second suggestion: again like the LSMG3, it doesn't do anything interesting. This is actually one of the hardest weapons to fix, because it's so boring to use. For that reason, and I hate myself for saying this, I think the A12 should be a fully automatic shotgun. Now I'm sure you'll hate this idea. It's harder to implement than any other change I'll suggest in this post, it's got a MASSIVE potential to be a really annoying weapon to fight against, it could very well be overpowered. All of these things are true, but it's the only way I can think of to make this thing worth using. Now, to keep this thing balanced, I'm going to compare it to the Haymaker 12 from CoD: Black ops 3, a game I have several hundred hours in. The thing that makes the gaymaker Haymaker effective isn't the damage, it's the recoil your character takes when hit. if you've got a bunch of those little hits in quick succession, it means you can't aim back. So what you do is you make the A12 have a really bad cone of fire, but give it lower recoil and a fire rate of somewhere around 3-4 shots per second. The other thing is that it needs to have low damage, but not so low that it's useless. I'd suggest 10-6-5 per pellet. This is about half of what the STG has, but it's firing more often. Definitely keep this weapon on the weaker side, though, because auto shotguns can get really powerful when used in groups.
Flamethrower NOT BALANCED!
Yeah, I'm going to get some hate from this one. Right now it's very weak, but it's strength is that all the fire keeps the user masked so long as they keep moving around. I want the flamethrower to be more of a supression weapon, I want it to hold down hallways and open areas, but I DON'T want it to be killing people. Ideally, this thing would be a support weapon. Hell, even a distraction. So what I'd do is increase the range(I'm not insane, hear me out), but decrease the area of effect. Basically, smaller streams of fire that shoot farther, making it feel more like a real flamethrower than the one they have in Team Fortress 2. I would also like it to do an additional 2 ticks of 7 damage, each spread over 1 full second after the last contact of a flamethrower to simulate burn damage over time, but that might be a pipe dream. I don't know, I don't know the code.RailRifle NOT BALANCED!
Max, you and I have talked about this before: Making the RailRifle bullet travel instantly would make it WAY superior to the sniper rifle for long range engagements. The bright pink bullet is easily visible to other snipers which would it balanced against a L115A3 in skilled hands. If I'm going to pay 55,000 cash for a gun, I don't just want another L115 with zero benifits to it.Now onto some secondary weapons.
USP NOT BALANCED!
This thing is just sad. It's listed in the description as a "back up pistol," but honestly it's not good enough to justify that title. This thing is singlehandedly the worst weapon in the game, and fixing it requires another tweak of the same caliber as the A12 needed. If I had my way, the USP would keep the damage the same(or even lower it, which sounds crazy now, but it'll make sense in a second), have a 20 round magazine, with 1 extra magazine for a total of 40 rounds. But here's the important part: Make it an automatic weapon with a pretty high rate of fire, somewhere between the UMP and the Blastgun, with a recoil about equal to what the carbine has. If this weapon is supposed to be a "back up weapon" it needs to be used only in emergencies, where you just need a little more damage to finish off that enemy. This thing would become a spray and pray bullet hose to get that last hit in, but the extremely low amount of ammo would keep it from being a good primary weapon. I'm a little worried that this would fill sort of the same role that the Blast Gun does. If so, I would buff the Blast Gun in firerate and/or magazine capacity, then increase the reload time on the new USP. Basically if you can't kill a dude with a mag of this autopistol, then you deserve to die.Revolver BALANCED!
I love this thing, its the first item I buy in a new game. It's cheap and it packs a heck of a lot more power than the USP. The long reloads keep the high damage balanced.RPG NOT BALANCED!
I hate this thing. Speaking realisically, the RPG is intended to pierce tank armor using a very directed blast. Think of a grenade going off through an area the size of a quarter. What it does in this game instead is act like a grenade that flies in a straight line. This is a) unrealistic (which doesn't matter that much, but hey) and b) annoying to fight (which is much more important.) So to fix this thing, let's make it a little more realistic. I have two proposals that I think work well.Hard fix: Remove ALL the explosive radius from this thing, but make it deal 250-300 damage. This will instantly kill soldiers on a direct hit, but more importantly, it will become THE best option for fighting vehicles. Two rockets would kill a jet from any health, but only if both were direct hits. In this case, I'd also reduce the price to something like 10,000 to reduce the vehicle spam.
Easier(?) fix: drop the damage on players to do 40 at most, then boost the damage to vehicles up to 250-300. Same problems are solved, but it's still useful as an anti soldier weapon, which is irritating, but eh.
Gravity Gun NOT BALANCED!
No suprises on this one's rating of not balanced. By using it, you gain access to locations that normal players can never reach. It's just complete control over the map due to the insane mobility advantage. Honestly though, the gravity gun itself isn't the problem. The weapons used in the primary slot are. The G36 is a good gun. The G36 deployed anywhere in the map in less than 20 seconds is borderline overpowered. If I had to suggest a change, it would be to make the Gravity gun take twice as long to switch to and from. So if you're holding your G36 and you want to escape, you now have to wait for the weapon to switch for longer, so that your opponnent can get a chance to shoot back. Honestly, I wish I had a better counter for it. Nerfing it won't do much besides make the community angry. Making it a primary weapon might help, but again, the community might get up in arms about it. It's in a really weird state of being half-balanced.
Good news, I came up with a better solution. To fix the gravity gun, just give it infinite ammo! Never thought I'd say that one... So here's what you do: Keep the current 5 rounds in 1 magazine, but make it so that you have zero in reserve. So once you use those 5, you're done. This is where the cool stuff happens: Instead of just being useless for the rest of that life, make it so that the Gravity Gun regenerates those 5 rounds over time. This prevents gSlight tangent: Fixing the Gravity Gun infinite ammo bug was not a great idea. We've been using that bug for YEARS, so it had become a part of the meta. Pulling that ability from us was never going to go well, regardless of if it was a bug or a feature. I'm not saying you should add it back. It was a bug after all, and bugs need to be fixed. But what I am saying is that players don't like it when you remove a three year old habit.
Bow BALANCED!
I'll be 100% real with you, I don't use this thing. I haven't even seen the new prediction arc. 101 torso damage on a slow firing, difficult to use weapon seems fine to me. I would love if someone would chime in on this and give me their perspective, but for now I'm calling it balanced.Now on to the utility items.
Plasma Grenades BALANCED!
BEEP BEEP BEEPBEEPBEEPBEEPBEEPBEEP BOOM! The starting grenades that you use until you get the trapmines, the only change I would make to them is that they should totally have a visual arc like the Bow does to show you where they're going so you don't get them stuck on the ceiling and end up killing yourself...Trap Mines NOT BALANCED!
This one is a suprisingly easy fix. The problem with them is that players will use them in two unintended methods: 1) Running away, dropping a mine, hoping it kills the chaser before the chaser kills the user, and 2) dropping a mine from the air on a group (or just one, sometimes) of players, while flying above them with a Gravity Gun. I can fix this with one step: Make the Trap Mines take time to deploy. Basically, with mines equipped, pressing V would freeze your movement and make you unable to fire for about .75 seconds. That's not a lot of time, but it's enough to make you think twice before pressing the key.M67 BALANCED!
These are really cool, and a neat alternative to Plasma Grenades. I would love to see them get a price reduction down to about 3000 because they aren't really good enough to justify costing more than the Mines.Tomahawks NOT BALANCED!
I get why people hate these things, I really do. It's annoying to die from a 101 hit that you had no idea was going to happen. Especially when you are in really close range. It's a cheap kill that takes very little skill. To fix that, let's make the Tomahawks require skill by forcing them to be longer range weapons. Add a prediction arc like on the bow when you press V. From there, add a delay before the Tomahawk can actually be thrown. Ideally, I would have the arc change from red to green when this delay is met, then require another press of the V key to actually throw. Alternately, you could have the V key be held in order to throw. If V is released when the arc is red, it isn't thrown, but if the timer has passed and the arc is green, it will throw a tomahawk. This whole system takes the killing potential of a weapon and balances it against the time it takes to deploy it.Lastly, I want to touch on the vehicles.
Humvees BALANCED!
Just a slight damage ore fire rate buff on these. They're actually really fun to be a gunner for if you've got a good driver and a steady hand. The passenger seat is somewhat useless though.Jet Ship NOT BALANCED!
I bet you guys were waiting for this one, eh? The problem with the jet is that there's no good counter to it. You can shoot it, but the only weapons that do any significant damage to it are the Mini-G and Carbine. If you're not using either of those items, you have to switch to them (assuming you own them) and potentially let the enemy gain some ground on you while you try to kill the damn thing for the third time this game. If my proposed RPG changes get implemented, then the jet recieves an instant nerf of epic proportions, at which point I'd call in balanced. If my changes are not implemented, I'd lower the health by 100 and start playing the smoking animation when it reaches 200 health. The other thing I'd do, again only if the RPG changes are not in effect, is to lower the jet's camera sensitivity by some fraction. 1/2 or 1/3 maybe. Just something to make it a little harder to pilot.I'd love to hear some feedback on this. If you think I'm absolutely insane for one of my suggestions, please tell me and I'd honestly love to hear your perspective :)
suggestion for the tomahawk: make its damage on limbs 51
RPG: both slow down the bullet speed and make it way more "awarable" with a big sound radius and more "smoke" or fire, bottom line make it unoticable
